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AICN TABLETOP: Massawyrm Sits Down With Hardback D&D 4E And Talks About The Magnificent Egos Relaunch!!

Hey Danny by Massawyrm 1	May 21st, 2008 05:57:46 PM
Google is your friend. Try typing: Massawyrm D&D 4E. That'll give you a rough idea.
haha by quadrupletree	May 21st, 2008 05:58:13 PM
you guys are nerds. Oh wait.
I'm interested, jerk by Scorpio	May 21st, 2008 06:06:44 PM
Sheesh. And AICN Tabletop? Great idea! Well, if meshing the worlds of tabletop gaming and inane talkbacks is a great idea, then it's a great idea. Oh, and Mass? Get rid of that tiny font. I'm an old man for ghoddsakes.
The font... by Massawyrm 1	May 21st, 2008 06:08:56 PM
already on top of that. That was me boning the coding for the story. I just HAD to play with all the pretty colors. It should be fixed shortly.
Cash Crab by James Westfall	May 21st, 2008 06:15:02 PM
Total destruction of the Forgotten Realms setting. "Fixing" what wasn't broken. Third edition in less than ten years (3, 3.5, 4). Dumbed down MMORPG rules. Yeah... pass.
anyone else by Blade_Runner	May 21st, 2008 06:23:16 PM
wish Danny would just go away? Hazards of the internet. I'm not crazy about 4E. I will, however, probably end up purchasing a hardback copy of my own eventually.
Good idea... by Mr Willi	May 21st, 2008 06:31:04 PM
Although I hope you review/pass along news about more than just Wizards of the Coast and Games Workshop products. I'd argue some of the best stuff out there is being put out by smaller publishers. Anyway, for Danny and the rest of his ilk: I'm impressed your lives are so interesting you took time off your busy schedule of humping Megan Fox just to post here. Really, I'm flattered.
Mr Willi by Massawyrm 1	May 21st, 2008 06:36:31 PM
That's the hope! And I agree, there's some AMAZING small publishers out there.
Googling: Massawyrm D&D 4E by Snizitch	May 21st, 2008 06:43:22 PM
I don't get it? It comes to the top of the page, but who is going to search for it that way? Now searching "D&D 4E" you drop in around 5th on the list, that's still good :P (I'm looking forward to trying the new edition out)
D&D 4th by Grendel745	May 21st, 2008 06:43:53 PM
I'll admit to being intrigued, especially since I put D&D aside quite a while ago. Not to say that I don't play anything, quite the opposite but I've focused more on smaller games. Have to admit though some of the 4th Ed stuff I've seen reminds of those many years ago when I first bought the red box D&D and the dice I had to color myself. As long as the mechanics hold up to the nostalgia I'll give it a try.
I'm 27 and never played this game by Quin the Eskimo	May 21st, 2008 06:54:16 PM
but looks interesting, if not way to complicated
Weed and Magic the Gathering by Brians Life	May 21st, 2008 07:09:18 PM
I'm 28 years old. I have a girlfriend of 3 years that will soon be my wife. I pay my bills and some how don't live in my mom's basement. I smoke weed and play MAGIC the GATHERING with other people from 22 to 38 in age range. It's some of the best competetive fun I've had while not sweating.
Thanks Brians Life... by Massawyrm 1	May 21st, 2008 07:13:11 PM
Now I'm gonna have Jon Stewart in my head all night Sure...you've played M:TG...But have you played M:TG...ON WEEEEED?
At least... by rxse7en	May 21st, 2008 07:16:39 PM
it looks like he's wielding Conan's father's sword, no? +1 I could never get into D&D back in the 80s I was already hooked on video games. Atari 2600. Atari 800 and Commodore 64 gaming. Good luck on your new column...I know there are others that will thoroughly enjoy this.
I'm interested by HiWayRobry	May 21st, 2008 07:27:51 PM
I'm 46 years old, married, have a job and actually am not shunned by society in general. At heart I'm a gamer and always will be. I played D&D when it first came out in the 70's. I've played MtG and just about any other game you've ever heard of. I'm excited about the new column and about gaming in general. If you're not interested, don't read the column. Pretty simple, huh?
This old D&D player is considering it. by ZeroCorpse	May 21st, 2008 07:29:56 PM
I was around to play the ORIGINAL D&D -- That little paper scroll in a little brown box. I played Basic D&D, Advanced D&D, D&D 2nd Edition, and a little of D&D 3rd Edition, but stopped before 3.5 was released. Now, this seems to be a nice way to get back into it for the old-school players. The only problem is that I really don't know anyone who would play it. I could join some of the college students around here, but they're all half my age (which is fun when they're chicks, but annoying when they're dudes). I might get the books anyway. Hrm.
I look forward to more Massawyrm by Dr. Egon Spengler	May 21st, 2008 07:31:01 PM
Spengler approves this column. I'm still a tabletop geek at heart and love reading about this kind of shit. Piss off Dickblood.
Even if I don't have the time... by Gelatinousman	May 21st, 2008 07:33:00 PM
I still roleplay every other week. I'm 42, married, father of two, not overweight or deformed and I'm a teacher. I'm very happy about the new column. Thanks AICN, keep up the good work
4.5 by melchior42	May 21st, 2008 07:34:56 PM
Can't wait for the 4.5 editions.
Thanks, Massawyrm!! Just one request... by Boromir	May 21st, 2008 07:35:49 PM
Now can we have a review on how horrendously craptacular the new "enhanced" Camel blend is? I wanna send it to RJR so they can see what they've wrought.
Lost me at by Brunomac	May 21st, 2008 07:43:34 PM
Half Dragon Dire Wolves. Almost lost me before that with Half Dragon rangers...
But still by Brunomac	May 21st, 2008 07:46:01 PM
been years since I've been able to get enough geeks together to run a game. Not enough in my life anymore. I invented a game world over 25 years ago, and ran it almost non-stop until the last few years. Can't go to a game convention - bottom of the barrel geeks in those places...sigh.
melchior42 by Massawyrm 1	May 21st, 2008 07:47:24 PM
Dear god. Don't even joke about that.
BTW, on a serious note... by Boromir	May 21st, 2008 07:53:38 PM
Your review was damn helpful--tells me just what to expect if I jump back in with 4E. Thanks for that, seriously.
Oh, and always used First edition rules by Brunomac	May 21st, 2008 07:53:58 PM
with some house rules (hardened over decades of play). There was no way I was upgrading to 3rd or 4th when my house rules long -since had solved the problems with the original rule sets. And this new edition? It ain't D&D to me...
The greatest game system? by Brunomac	May 21st, 2008 07:57:13 PM
Chaosium's basic rules. Runequest and Call of Cthulhu. The only rules system that I would describe as "elegant." Man, miss running COC now too...
i never played tabletop... by snaredrum	May 21st, 2008 08:06:32 PM
but GOD i love reading about it. it's like listening to someone speak french slowly - i kinda get bits of it, but there's still bits that may as well be martian. good work though Wrymfood!
But did they bring back Thac0? by The Dude Abides	May 21st, 2008 08:11:16 PM
Man, I miss thac0.
Dude by Brunomac	May 21st, 2008 08:15:40 PM
That's what D&D was all about. Well, some other stuff too. But so much was based around Thaco. Getcher pluses and minuses...crunch them numbers - roll! Naural 1. What's your armor cla..."IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOUR ARMOR CLASS IS, JABRONI!" - whoa, really dorked out there for a second. Wot was I talkin' about?
Tabletop... by WraithedAngel	May 21st, 2008 08:48:25 PM
I'm only new to the RPG/Tabletop geek area, but I'm pretty sure your glowing reviews of 4E are going to drag me all the way in! Will you have Star Wars minis news when it comes up?
Hey Danny by WerePlatypus	May 21st, 2008 08:49:31 PM
The time between your first post and your fifth post was two minutes. It takes a bit of the wind out of your snark. just sayin'. I'm happy to see this section of AICN. Even if it doesn't get alot of traffic, it's only obtrusive for those who click on the link.
I also play at least once a week by WerePlatypus	May 21st, 2008 08:50:23 PM
but it won't ever be 4th. :)
Table Top Forever, Video NEVER...Well not never by Sraven	May 21st, 2008 09:05:07 PM
Great Addition keep it going
Update: Ewok loses, Cook wins American Idol! by Fa Fa Fooey	May 21st, 2008 09:13:06 PM
Looks like no Ewok song tonight, yub yub!
I have no friends by wintocha67	May 21st, 2008 09:21:47 PM
So I find it rather difficult to play D&D, yet I'm staring at 50 books, four editions of D&D core books, right above my monitor.
are there ever huge brawls by BadMrWonka	May 21st, 2008 09:30:44 PM
between D&D players and Magic card enthusiasts?
Looking forward to future notices by MediaNerd	May 21st, 2008 09:35:22 PM
Congrats on the section! I'm at a school that offers game development(ie Videogame), but most of those kids are into the "old school" way also, so have been thinking about hanging with them some coming weekend. But I did D&D 15 years ago and would be more interested in purusing a different world, maybe something more sci-fi/noir-ish, so hopefully I'll discover some other options.
Do White Wolf next by themanwhojaped	May 21st, 2008 09:38:27 PM
Great column.
Thanks Massa by Zulithe	May 21st, 2008 09:53:02 PM
I have 4e pre-ordered on amazon since they have such a stunningly good deal on the 3 book gift set. I really hope it fills all the needs I have. I like to custimize monsters a lot, give them class levels, etc. I hope 4e makes things like this just as easy and flexible as ever. I've been kinda disappointed at the stat previews on WotC's website. Usually they give 3 versions of a critter and the only real difference is the level, hit points, damage, etc. but the powers don't change much, if at all. I just don't want a world full of vanilla monsters
Thank ya kindly sir. by SonofVoodoo	May 21st, 2008 10:42:17 PM
I'm happy to see gaming goodness coming to the "main stream". I am an avid gamer and am preparing to head out to a convention this weekend for some good ol' LARPing. Maybe squeeze in a couple of board games in between the frontin and the drinkin. Still trying to figure out how I'm gonna Bonegnawer some sleeping space.
I didn't know people still played D&D ... by krack	May 21st, 2008 10:43:54 PM
I thought they all played Magic cards now.
big cap america news by bacci40	May 21st, 2008 10:45:17 PM
marvel films is confirming the following...cap will be set in ww2...events of the film will be a lead in to the avengers film, which will be released 6 weeks later...the star on the tony starks work bench is indeed a part of the shield....looks like marvel is getting it right...
Cool Review... by peter_page	May 21st, 2008 10:45:23 PM
Gotta drive into the City (4 hours away from our little mountain town) to pick up the 4E on June 6. Your earlier reviews made me stoked to get back into D&D again, which I haven't played since my Pop banned it when I was a kid. Good Stuff, Mass(!)
Speaking of the 4th E by jae683	May 21st, 2008 11:01:32 PM
We had a Wizards of the Coast rep come to the local comic shop near me and we played a sample session with stock characters. It was interesting. I like what they did with the fighter class. That always seemed like the red-headed step child of the sword weilding classes.
BTW by jae683	May 21st, 2008 11:05:12 PM
I always liked the Dangerous Journeys system Gygax came out with after he left TSR. From what I hear his wife put the kaputz to it, and they don't make it anymore. I do play alot of WarHammer role playing too, and just got the dark Heresy book.
I am very glad to see this! by Bones	May 21st, 2008 11:22:47 PM
Speaking as a professional who has worked in the illustration, video game and tabletop game industry for seven years now, it is great to see this happen here. So, Massa--are you going to Gen Con this year? You might want to check out the Pathfinder Core Rulebook that is coming out from Paizo...I know a lot of people who are eagerly anticipating it. And yes, that was a blatant plug for some of my friends and clients.
WotC and 4E by Lord Haw Haw	May 21st, 2008 11:32:35 PM
Let's see...WotC is a subsidary of Hasbro, and WotC formerly held rights to Pokemon and currently holds rights to Magic. Translate that any way you wish. I'll stick to 1st Edition, thanks. I support D&D systems that don't have such nonsense as vampiric monks and, um, half-dragon rangers...
Having said that... by Lord Haw Haw	May 21st, 2008 11:34:50 PM
Thanks for the review all the same, Massawyrm. I may not get into 4E, but power to those that do. In any case, I'm still a D&D fan.
Bones by Massawyrm 1	May 21st, 2008 11:43:43 PM
Actually I'm a big Paizo fan and Pathfinder was actually a topic of discussion here at the Casa de la Wyrm this past weekend. Very curious to see what they do with this whole 3.75 thing, (we knew someone was going to break from the pack) especially if what I hear about Monte Cook giving input is true. Perhaps you should put a bug in your friends ear to drop me a line.
AICN Tabletop = Awesome by Doc_Savage	May 21st, 2008 11:56:47 PM
Good move AICN! Let's see lots of news and reviews.
jae683 by Dingbatty	May 22nd, 2008 12:57:34 AM
Gygax shifted his allegiance and work toward Castles & Crusades at Troll Lord Games. Far better update to AD&D than the bastardized, min/max-y, power game/video game-esque 3rd and 4th editions. Other than using the 1st or 2nd edition, you are better off with C&C, Kenzer & Co.'s Hackmaster, or any edition of GURPS.
Massa... by BadMrWonka	May 22nd, 2008 01:17:59 AM
I actually chuckled to myself because although I consider myself a geek, I have absolutely NO idea what you were talking about...first time I think that's ever happened to me on AICN... good times...
Good Column! by Toonol	May 22nd, 2008 01:38:04 AM
I hope you can cast a wide net; I'd like to see review of a lot of different game styles... rpg, miniatures, wargames (like the Avalon Hill games), and so on.
Does this include discussion of Twister and Risk? by newc0253	May 22nd, 2008 03:27:52 AM
seriously, thanks to AICN for doing this: it makes sense if you guys cover comics and even novels (coughQuintcough) to include games as well. so how about that RuneQuest huh?
Review this please... by Lemming	May 22nd, 2008 03:35:10 AM
http://www.koboldsatemybaby.co m/
ooh yay!! by roxyprime	May 22nd, 2008 07:31:48 AM
anyone like the err novels based on such games??? horus heresy novels kick ass!!! reminds me of reading my lil brothers tyrannid codex years ago and being fascinated! couldn't paint figures cos i suck!! anyone seen that clint langley art book of 40k? its mint! that world of darkness stuff sounds interesting....being a girl, its well funny walking into a games workshop store and seeing the guys look all puzzled....gasp!!! a female!!! with boobs!! heh heh heh
boardgamegeek.com by tehDude	May 22nd, 2008 07:40:55 AM
Nice addition, i just hope it is better than AICN games which is awful. Any chance of linking to Boardgamegeek.com or highlighting it in your news section. It is an awesome site that always could use more publicity (ps. im just a fan) If any of you have never heard of it and love this sort of thing then give it a whirl.
Cool idea by STLost	May 22nd, 2008 08:14:22 AM
Nice to see RPGs getting represented on here. If AICN can discuss movies, tv and comics...why not RPGs? They still use THAC0 in D&D? I haven't played since 2nd Edition, but THAC0 was crazy. Then we jumped to Star Wars 2nd Edition. That was a great system. I think D6 is my personal favorite. Then West End Games was bought by WotC and they changed to a d20 system. What that hell? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. We still use d6 rules (when we have a chance to play). Anyway, nice to read about the RPG community on here! Brings back great memories.
Hell, I'm interested in this column by Killah_Mate	May 22nd, 2008 08:18:23 AM
And I don't even play D&D.
With everything crossing over this makes sense... by Ironlightsaber	May 22nd, 2008 08:28:51 AM
Movies are based on video games and comics and there are plenty of table top games based on all those properties so having a tabletop review column makes sense. There was that D&D movie (if you want to call it that) that came out a few years ago so it won't be surprising if more gaming properties do eventually become movies. I too hope you review some of the Avalon hill games (like Arkham Horror) as well as the popular miniature games like Star Wars Miniatures as well as a throw back to classics that are no longer in print like Space Hulk. SPAAAAAAACE HUUUUUULK!!!!!!!
Odd review by Animation	May 22nd, 2008 08:47:09 AM
MWyrm, Your review seemed odd. Specifically, you talked almost entirely about the art and organization, not the mechanics. I play with a group of friends that, on their other gaming night, were lucky enough to be 4E playtesters for some time now. I didn't myself, but all of them absolutely hated the mechanics in the new edition. These guys arent old people resistant to change either. These guys span in age from 21 to 51 and everywhere in between. Most of them play multiple different systems, and lots of them play both crunchy systems as well as simpler systems. Heck, one of them is even into Capes, for crying out loud. So, I guess I'm saying that you paint this really great picture of 4E, but your review based it off rules presentation. Since I know of one group that hates it based on mechanics reasons, it would have been good if your review could have touched on that area, since for many people that will be the issue.
Animation - the Mechanics by Massawyrm 1	May 22nd, 2008 08:49:37 AM
were covered in a 3 part, 7000wd series almost three months ago. This is the follow up talking about how that system was compiled into hardback. BTW - I loved the mechanics.
oops, typo by Animation	May 22nd, 2008 08:50:54 AM
I said "but your review based it off rules presentation" but I meant to say "GRAPHICS PRESENTATION". My bad.
oh ok then by Animation	May 22nd, 2008 08:51:43 AM
MWyrm ... you are fast. Wow! Fair enough then, I guess I missed the original article. Thank!
NO IRON GOLEM = FLAMES ON OPTIMUS by chrth	May 22nd, 2008 09:01:08 AM
Damn, that's one sucky omission. But I'm giddy the Tarrasque is still around. BTW, Massa: I think it's great you're doing this. Fuck the haters. And "Swear to Pelor"? Your Geek Fu is greater than my Geek Fu
by Kid Kryptonite	May 22nd, 2008 09:16:41 AM
Glad to see you haven't been overwhelemed by the shitheads that haunt this site yet, Big Wyrm. I'm look at you, Danny, you goofy fuck. Based on your reviews so far I've pre-ordered my copy of the core books through Amazon for $60, and I can't wait to get a crack at 'em! And thanks for the email response back during the 3 part series, bro. Sorry I haven't responded 'til now. Tabletop 4 life, suckahs!
Looking forward to it by Jack_Griffin	May 22nd, 2008 11:32:02 AM
Massawyrm, thanks! I've been playing D&D for almost 25 years, and I definitely appreciate AICN doing this. I played in a demo of 4E at a con back in March and was pleasantly surprised by how much I liked it. Oh, regarding the fears of "4.5," I think we can relax. A couple of the developers have publicly said that doing v3.5 so soon was a mistake (duh), and they're still feeling the repercussions from that.
by Phaerie	May 22nd, 2008 11:56:10 AM
I was interested in your original 4e previews and I like the idea of "AICN TABLETOP"... but c'mon, no mention of Paizo's attempts to keep 3.5e alive in this BIG YEAR of tabletop gaming stuff? If you're going to report, please report across the board, not just on your gaming love affairs.
Nice reviews Massa! by MacTard420	May 22nd, 2008 01:06:21 PM
I really want to get back into D&D and this seems like the perfect time to. Now if I could just get some fellow geeks to play with.
Still torn on 4E by TheBishop	May 22nd, 2008 01:08:54 PM
While I've had several opportunities to play 4E, I'm still SOOO torn between what IMO they did right and what they did wrong. To me, the biggest thing they did wrong was how characters were retooled. Character creation no longer feels like developing a character to me, instead it feels like building a deck for a collectable card game. It feels a lot more mechanics driven than story driven from the players side. On the otherhand, they've done the exact opposite for DM's - they've given him tools to make it easier to drive the game thru story without having to "fake" mechanics for it.
Mass, definately a welcome talkback! by tylermo	May 22nd, 2008 01:47:09 PM
I've played a variety of RPG's since about 1982 or 1983. Still undecided on D&D 4th. Have played all other editions, but not so much in the last few years. I've been playing the great Savage Worlds rpg. (From Shane Hensley-creator of the old Deadlands rpg). The current rulebook is a 160 page, full-color softcover. $10.00 It does so many genres very well. Plus, they have print and pdf plot points from pirates, to 4 color supers, military, and fantasy, etc. Not to mention, pdf toolkits for pulp, sci-fi, fantasy, and horror. Also, cardstock characters, screen inserts, etc. It's a very simple, fast, fun, and furious game. Check em' out at peginc.com Also, whoever praised Castles and Crusades(from Troll Lord Games) as being a better successor to the D&D throne...you're exactly right. Love that game (for my fantasy needs)! Gary G's Castle Zagyg is fantastic. Check those guys out at trolllord.com Mass, if you haven't played Sav Worlds, or Castles and Crusades, I think you're in for a treat.
I haven't played D&D since high school by RainXTN	May 22nd, 2008 02:11:39 PM
And I'VE got my copy of the PHB pre-ordered.
Oh yeah.... by RainXTN	May 22nd, 2008 02:14:12 PM
And looking forward to more editions of this column! I am intrigued by this new WoW Board Game expansion you hint at.....
Any word on adventures? by jamestewart007	May 22nd, 2008 02:14:30 PM
I don't plat D&D anymore, but I read alot of fantasy novels that also have D&D settings and enjoy reading the modules. Any word as to what is going to happen with Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, etc?
Jamestewart007 by TheBishop	May 22nd, 2008 02:27:48 PM
They are going to provide limited, focused support for campaign settings. This year, they have several 4E Forgotten Realms books (a Campaign setting and I think a Player's Guide), but aside from maybe a few adventures, some articles on D&D Insider (the new web platform for Dungeon and Dragon magazines), and maybe one other sourcebook that'll be all you will see for that setting. Other settings will receive support at the rate of roughly one a year (2009 will be Eberron, after that they haven't decided). The goal is to focus on Core rules that everyone can use, not niche setting products that only a certain portion of the fanbase is interested in.
TheBishop by jamestewart007	May 22nd, 2008 02:45:57 PM
So it could be 3 years before a new dragonlance campaign comes out? Thats pretty lame. They will have a new edition of D&D by that time. What about contracting licences out? I know they have done that in the past. Dragonlance in particular has seen some really good stuff come out in recent years because of it.
by TheBishop	May 22nd, 2008 02:53:28 PM
Yeah, it could be a bit before they hit various campaign settings, and some of them may not get book support at all (although it is highly likely that there will be articles for other campaign settings on D&D Insider before there are actual books for them). As far as contracting out, I think it is unlikely. In the process of gearing up for 4E, Wizards let all of their external licensing lapse (including Dragonlance, Ravenloft, and Dungeon/Dragon magazines) and took control of the intellectual properties again. None of the licensees were doing poorly by the settings, so there is little to no reason why WotC would have chosen to do so unless they intended to keep the IP's in-house.
About Dragonlance by tylermo	May 22nd, 2008 02:58:35 PM
If you're not opposed to playing 3.5 supported material, you should be able to find the d20 Dragonlance stuff from Margaret Weis Productions. THey're license has either run out, or will soon. Didn't actually play any of it, but bought some at a discount. Looks good.
Is this what they mean by "jumping the shark"? by ruven76	May 22nd, 2008 03:35:47 PM

tylermo by jamestewart007	May 22nd, 2008 04:02:28 PM
yeah, I picked up some of the stuff put out by MWP and its great stuff! I don't play any of it, but its great background filler for the novels. Not to mention the art work, maps and other great details you get along with the modules.
So did anyone else see... by Massawyrm 1	May 22nd, 2008 05:06:50 PM
That positive review George W. Bush gave of of Shia Lebeouf's new tabletop wargame "LeBeefcake!" I've been playing the Even Steven faction, myself...
ha ha by jamestewart007	May 22nd, 2008 05:27:44 PM
not true. The games work like a regular RPG game on playstation. have you ever played Final fantasy for example? You go on quests to find/kill/ect. In D&D the whole thing is lead by a dungeon master who plans things out a guides players along the quest, but still has to react to what players want to do. And players can pretty much do what ever they want to do. If you want your character to hump an oger's leg, you can do that, but get ready for what the ogre will do to you. Some people use miniatures and stuff to show whats going on, other people who are poor describe it. When you get into a battle, your success is dependant on your dice. You role to see if you manage to hit what ever, roll to see how much damage you do, you roll to see if you can doge that fireball that was just cast at you, or that dragon who is trying to bite you in half. Basically its a game where the only limitations you face are your imagination and luck with dice. I recomend it be played with doritos and mountain dew.
Hmmm... by HiWayRobry	May 22nd, 2008 07:14:19 PM
I just got my copy of 'Keep on the Shadowfell', a new adventure for 4E. It's got a quick-play rulebook and 5 pre-gen characters. It's....well, interesting to say the least. Even after reading Wyrm's review of the mechanics from a while back there are some things that surprised me (maybe my memory sucks and you refered to them Massa, but I don't remember you saying anything about At-Will powers.) The combat abilites for the five classes that were represented were amazing. A 1st-level Wizard with 23 hit points?!?! A Dragonborn Paladin?!?! With a breath-weapon?!?! Wow. Um. This is going to take some getting used to. The Healing Surge ability that any class can use? I'm intrigued, and geeked about playing, but it's a far cry from the D&D that I'm used to. But, I think I like it!
I'm wondering... by McTreble	May 22nd, 2008 07:20:24 PM
What it is about 4th edition that is bringing the old guys back into the fold. I've been following the progress, really enjoying what I've seen, and while it certainly has some really cool ideas, I don't get the "feels like 2nd edition" going on. Can anyone remind me what it was about 2nd edition that seems so familiar in 4th? I have played since the red box, but this edition feels new. Better, but not reminiscent of pre 3.0 That being said, I think the art has something to do with my failure at connecting this beast to the older editions. Man, I miss Elmore. I love that old black and white art too; the new art looks polished and too detailed. Shadows made all the difference back in the day. Wyrm's mention of the art style as a throwback has me interested.
Yes, 1st-level PCs can take a hit! by Jack_Griffin	May 22nd, 2008 08:10:34 PM
HiWayRobry, yeah, that was one thing I dug a lot in the demo I played in March. A vicious sneeze will no longer kill a 1st-level character. He can now take a few hits. Also, because of the At-Will abilities, you can participate a lot longer (especially if you're a spellcaster, who used to be able to throw a couple of wussy magic missiles at 1st level, and then had to resort to, um, rocks). One of the biggest themes I've seen in 4E seems to be "Keep things moving" and with the rewards for tactical movement, the At-Will abilities, and the Healing Surges, they've apparently succeeded.
I agree Jack by HiWayRobry	May 22nd, 2008 09:27:46 PM
Although I'm still not exactly sure how the Healing Surges work. According to the Second Wind ability you can use SW to activate a HS as a standard action. But I was under the impression, since you have multiple HS uses a day, that you could use HS as a standard action at any time. But then, after reading the Cleric abilities, it looks like you can only use HS, when stated, by the actions of a Cleric (or Paladin). That makes me assume that the other HS's you have can only be used when taking a brief rest or an extended rest. At least that's the way I see it. And I agree about the spellcasters being significantly bettered at low levels. I wonder if that means they will be nerfed at higher levels? I hope not. Bring on the 'Stinking Cloud'!
Notes: by Massawyrm 1	May 22nd, 2008 10:06:48 PM
1) Yes, 1st lvl PC's can take a hit and have a lot more options than before. BUT, there is a slow steady advancement after that. No more d12 HP lvls. It tends to be between 4-6HP/lvl. You CAN use a healing surge whenever you want. But Paladin/clerics/warlords also have abilities that heal you by using healing surges (they have nonsurge using powers as well.) This prevents the party from completely full healing as often as they want all day. There still is a certain level of definite mortality. The neat thing about this whole surge business is that you can play without a cleric in the party without needing weeks between adventures to heal up.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz by TomBodet	May 22nd, 2008 10:16:49 PM
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Ah..... by HiWayRobry	May 22nd, 2008 10:50:04 PM
I see Tom Bodet found himself a Motel 8 to snooze in! So you CAN use a surge as a standard action at any time. Interesting. That does make a Cleric non-essential but still makes them a viable class to play, what with their Undead turning abilities and such. I have to admit that I didn't like 3.0 or 3.5 but so far I'm really digging 4E (even though I have yet to actually PLAY!).
That, of course,.... by HiWayRobry	May 23rd, 2008 02:05:01 AM
would be Motel 6.
Danny- by Lost Jarv	May 23rd, 2008 04:55:46 AM
Principal difference as far as I can see- Final Fantasy is good and you always get some eye candy. Whereas this you've got to rely on the power of your imagination. And the big kids will steal your lunch money and probably give you a swirly too. (J/k) No interest at all, but the Talkbacks on these are hysterical- especially when the NEEEERRRRRRDDDDD brigade show up. Ain't nothing geekier than having an AICN ID. Except maybe LARP.
Old School Player Will Try by Baron Merlot	May 23rd, 2008 06:17:51 AM
Massawyrn, thanks for the posts, you've got my curiosity piqued. I played D&D since 1st edition, but quit many years ago (with 2nd edition). I hated what they did with the 3rd edition Halflings ( I liked them as Hobbits-es), so I never got that far. I have a few pals who still play regularly once a month and I'll be joining them soon to try out the 4th edition.
What about multi-classing in D&D 4.0, Massawyrm? by Leafar the Lost	May 23rd, 2008 07:38:02 AM
What about multi-classing in D&D 4.0, Massawyrm? From what I read you can't do that until 11th level. Yes, I am a D&D Geek...
HiWayRobry by TheBishop	May 23rd, 2008 09:38:21 AM
Actually, most folks can only use second wind once per encounter. If you need more healing than that, you need a cleric/warlord to use your healing surges for you (although out of combat, you can "second wind" every few minutes until you run out of surges, if you desire). Also, Leafar, you can multiclass much earlier (heck, at 1st level). There is a preview article on multiclassing at http://www.wizards.com/default .asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080430a
Hmmm... by HiWayRobry	May 23rd, 2008 06:52:13 PM
So, which is it? Can you use a Healing Surge as a standard action, or not? Seems we have differing opinions on the subject.
by TheBishop	May 23rd, 2008 07:39:28 PM
No difference of opinion on the type of action it uses...just stating that you can only use Second Wind once per encounter.
Right... by HiWayRobry	May 23rd, 2008 10:26:01 PM
But Second Wind and Healing Surges are completely different things. Massa was implying that you can use a Healing Surge as a standard action at any time, and from what you are saying you can only use a Healing Surge (as a Second Wind action) once per encounter.
HiwayRobry by Massawyrm 1	May 23rd, 2008 11:23:57 PM
You can use a healing surge as a standard action once per encounter. This is called a second wind. My wording of any time meant that you didn't need a special power to do that. BUT those powers do allow you to blow through more than one healing surge in an encounter. But you can only do it on your own, unassisted by a power, once per encounter.

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